The Art and Science of Effective Design

Tom Nixon (00:01.459)
Thank you everyone for coming back to bull horns and bulls eyes. Hey, Curtis, thank you for having me back. Yeah, well, probably quite literally. So that’s good job security. Yeah. It’s nice to be needed. Okay, good. Tell that to my family. Anyway, here we go. We are going to explore some new territory today. You and I, Curtis, because so far we’ve been talking.

Curtis Hays (00:07.175)
Well, you’re always welcome back, Tom. I couldn’t do this without you.

Katie Decker (00:09.336)
Thank you.

Curtis Hays (00:13.607)
Yeah, I need you.

Tom Nixon (00:26.363)
More so about LinkedIn than any other social network in terms of marketing and doing bull horns and bullseyes activities. But today we are going to step into the metaverse and we’re going to talk a little more about Facebook.

Curtis Hays (00:38.719)
Yeah, not to be confused with some of the other meta episodes we’ve had previously, which really haven’t covered the company, which is Facebook and Instagram, for those of you who don’t know. But yeah, so we’ve got here today Katie. So Katie, gosh, I think 17 years ago, hired Katie back in the previous agency that I was at. So Katie and I have known each other a long time, and for probably 15 of those 17 years, Katie and I have worked together in some capacity or another.

Tom Nixon (00:44.351)
Yeah. Right.

Curtis Hays (01:08.527)
And so through that journey when I left and eventually started my own consulting, Katie shortly followed and was consulting as well. And I told this story in a previous episode. We we pitched a deal together and knew we needed to do things a bit differently and combine forces. And so one day at lunch we sat and kind of on a napkin, sketched out some ideas of different names. And so.

Katie Decker (01:19.523)
Thanks for watching!

Katie Decker (01:34.414)
Thanks for watching!

Curtis Hays (01:37.559)
Katie is pretty much an honorary co-founder of Kaleidoscope. She’s been here since the very beginning. And we kind of divided forces then. And I kind of took the more analytical, like Google ads route and those types of things. And Katie jumped in to doing Facebook. So I can’t remember when that was, Katie, how many years of experience you do have with Facebook advertising. So yeah, when do you think?

around that time was.

Katie Decker (02:09.234)
Yeah, it was probably, I mean, it’s probably, I feel like it’s, Kaleidoscope hasn’t been around quite 10 years, but I feel like I’ve been in it in some capacity for a very long time. So 10 years sounds like a good number, but it’s been a while.

Tom Nixon (02:26.287)
Yes, it does. Well, Facebook’s changed a lot. And was it even around 10 years ago? I can’t remember quite when it probably. Yeah. 2013, it was certainly around. Yeah. So the first thing we should do is talk about why we’re talking about Metta or Facebook, because I think most of the stuff that we’ve covered so far has been geared towards a B2B type of audience. And we should probably dispel what I think is probably a common notion that businesses have no business.

Katie Decker (02:33.622)
That was like when it first started.

Curtis Hays (02:33.782)
Oh yeah.

Tom Nixon (02:54.515)
conducting business on Facebook. They should be over at LinkedIn solely. And that’s not necessarily true. Is it even in the B2B space, Katie?

Katie Decker (03:03.758)
think so. It’s because I think even though you’re going after businesses on LinkedIn, they’re still people, right? And they’re not always doing business. So in most cases, you know, not everyone, but most cases, these people are using their smartphones, they’re, you know, on social, in Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat, whatever it may be. So I think there’s still a place for it. And, you know, those people are still there. It’s just a different…

sort of like avenue to attract them and what I feel is a different way than what you would do on LinkedIn.

Tom Nixon (03:39.879)
Yeah. Is it true? Curtis, maybe this one’s for you. Is it true that you are, you do have some targeting capability within Facebook or maybe you should answer that Katie, because I think people think and I think even that well on LinkedIn, you know, their people’s title, their job, you know, duties and you might not know that on Facebook, but you’re still able to target with some degree of specificity on Facebook, even if you’re doing a B2B type campaign.

Katie Decker (04:07.306)
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you can still do a lot of targeting like you do or similar to what you do on LinkedIn, but you’re right, you’re not going to get, you know, exactly their, you know, employer or the level that they’re at in sort of their role and some of those different types of things, but there’s still a lot of user behavior that you can target. So if let’s say, you know, you’re, you’re targeting somebody to sell a product, you can find people who are interested really, I guess, in anything.

people who are interested in an industry or a thing or, you know, any kind of genre of things. And like, that’s one way to do it, right? But then you can layer on top of that, you still have the capabilities of like uploading customer lists. So like ecommerce, let’s say you wanted to go after, you know, repeat customers or repeat business, you have the ability to do that. But then you also can use website visitors, you can.

great lookalikes on, again, customers or certain behaviors that people are doing on your website. And so those are just a few of the ways, but I think there’s definitely ways to attract your customers. Similarly, how you’re doing it on LinkedIn, it’s just a different platform.

Tom Nixon (05:23.215)
Yeah. And Curtis, it’s interesting sort of because we talked about how old Facebook is. And I remember when Facebook first came out and part of the appeal was as you can reach these mass audiences really at scale and at very little cost. And then the algorithms came for us and they decided, wait a minute, we’re going to throttle this back for brand pages and we’re going to make them pay. If they want to get in front of these audiences, even the ones that are following them, we’re going to configure the algorithm. So that’s not quite as easy organically. So then we started having to pay.

And now that we’re, don’t we live in a world where there needs to be a mixture of both sort of inorganic Facebook strategy and a paid Facebook strategy. And don’t they work better when they’re together.

Curtis Hays (06:02.584)
Right, 100%, right. So, and your audience may be on Facebook and they may be on Instagram, and we do have to think of them almost as the same platform in many ways, because we can serve up content to both platforms. And then depending on what those users’ preferences are, what platform they wanna use, then we can be promoting or showing that content organically in those spots. Obviously, reels are gonna perform better.

and say, you know, Instagram while maybe getting things in the feed with a carousel ad or something like that inside of Facebook is gonna be a bit more effective or maybe a video. Of course, including links and those types of things a little bit easier. I do wanna mention forms again because that was a big topic I talked about. Katie could talk about Facebook forms at some point here. But like the ability to use LinkedIn forms, I’m sorry, use Facebook forms for Lead Gen.

can be really effective. So again, instead of sending somebody to your website, which by the way, the Facebook pixel is super important. You wanna do remarketing that Katie talked about. You wanna build lookalike audiences. Making sure the pixel is properly configured, you’re firing custom events, those types of things is really gonna improve your campaigns and the ability to do kind of more advanced targeting and different things like that. So.

Tom Nixon (07:27.963)
some of that, if you don’t mind if I interrupt, some of that may sound like a foreign language to lay people in amongst the audience. So when you say there’s a Facebook pixel that needs to be configured properly, just real quickly for people who don’t know exactly what you’re talking about or how that works, why that’s so important.

Curtis Hays (07:28.347)
Um, yeah.

Curtis Hays (07:43.359)
So the pixel, which each platform is going to have, a pixel, each platform might call it differently. LinkedIn, it’s called the insights tag. But you would install that either directly on the website in the header, similar to how you would install your Google Analytics cookie. Or the better way to do it would be to put it inside of Google Tag Manager, which your developer or webmaster could do for you. And then within that, you can fire custom events. So let’s say, for example,

Um, what you, uh, an example of what you could do with the pixel is fire an event when somebody completes an action on the website you want them to complete. So that would be like a conversion. So, Hey, they came to our website, they filled out a form or they purchase product. Let’s send that event back to Facebook. So Facebook can learn off of that. We have it for reporting. So we know if the campaigns are effective or not, but we can also tell the algorithm, go and find us more people who are likely to potentially do this action.

based on the users who are performing that action. Or you may say, let’s build an audience based off of people who are visiting this specific page of the website. So now you’d say, oh, hey, they’re interested in this content. So now we could build a specific audience to send targeted messaging to, based on what they’re visiting. You can’t do any of that without the pixel.

Tom Nixon (09:01.019)
Right. And Katie, that’s why when you mentioned lookalike audiences earlier, I was going to have you explain that because I think right there lies. Probably the reason why Facebook or meta could be so effective is because yes, it’s maybe not considered the B2B platform that LinkedIn is, but you’re actually building audiences that are doing the consumer behavior that you want future audiences to do. And you can tell Facebook to go find people that look like this, not physically, but

that act like this that have the same interests and that’s extremely powerful because I think people spend more time on Facebook and they probably do more. Commercy type things on Facebook than they do on LinkedIn. I’m sure the stats bear that out. But isn’t that why isn’t that how Facebook becomes a B2B platform sort of within its meta verse.

Katie Decker (09:47.31)
I wouldn’t say it’s the only way, but it’s definitely a good way that businesses can do that. I mean, like, not only can you target the right, like, I guess just another layer on top of the audience piece is to Curtis’s, like, sort of story of like, hey, we can target people who visit these pages. You can take that a couple steps further even and say, hey, we want people who came to this page maybe spent this much time perhaps, right? Or like did these certain actions. But then…

maybe they didn’t convert, right? And so now we’re gonna run a campaign specifically to that group of people with maybe a different offer, a different message, something like that, right? So that’s one way, like I have an example of a client who we are essentially trying to get people to sign up to purchase products from them. It’s a very niche market, like it’s been tough to crack to begin with, but we’ve now found that a lot of people are signing up.

but then they’re not actually completing a purchase, right? So now we have new campaigns that are going back out. They already know our brand, we’re going back out and we’re basically saying, hey, we saw that you signed up, like you already kind of did the hard part, come back and make your purchase and here’s an offer. And you know, that’s, it’s another way, we kind of brought them in this audience of like, hey, we want people in this industry and we achieved that. Then we came back at them again and said,

Hey, now we want you to come, you know, sign up. And they did that. Now we want them to purchase. So we’re kind of building that funnel that a lot of people, I think, use on their websites and now we’re doing it in a social way with a platform that’s getting in front of a lot of eyeballs. So.

Tom Nixon (11:29.703)
Right. It’s funny because far be it for anyone to call me savvy at anything, but I’m savvy enough to know how that works. So we talked about this on a previous episode. So if I am prompted by something that’s of interest to me and I click on the website and I see the offer, if it’s something I want to buy, I will sign up for an account. I will put the item in my cart and then I will walk away because I know what’s coming is the hey, you didn’t buy. Here’s a 15% off coupon code. Boom, boom, boom. And I go check out.

So, you know, our consumers that savvy, I don’t know, but it probably will increasingly be so in it stresses. I just want to stress the importance of maybe you can expound on it. Why you need those follow through campaigns because you might have a whole group of people who either doing intentionally what I did or unintentionally and they forgot or they got distracted or they had second thoughts or whatever it is. So is this becoming a bigger part of your overall campaign strategy?

Katie Decker (12:26.626)
Generally, yes. Like, again, I think it’s, you know, it’s a different platform. So I think sometimes you just have to understand or take a step back and think about the mindset of the user on the platform that you’re marketing on, right? LinkedIn, people are on there because, you know, you’re out looking for business advice or seeing what’s happening in the business world, right? So for them at that point to get something from, you know, again, like a B2B type of business that…

is solving a problem that maybe they’re having or whatever the case may be. You know, they, they’ll kind of in that mindset and they’re sort of not necessarily expecting it, but they’re, you know, they’re at work doing that. Let’s say then here we come on Facebook and we want to still target those people. And, but we know now, or can theorize, right? That they’re at home, they’re sitting on the couch. It’s after dinner, whatever. And now we’re coming through and we’re saying, Hey, we’re still here.

And we want to get in front of you again. But I think the biggest misconception that happens is people just think like, Hey, I’m, I’m marketing to these people on LinkedIn. Let’s use the exact same stuff and do it on social, but they’re, they’re just not in that space. Again, you’re kind of catching them in personal time and you’re disrupting their day or their moment. And so creating different content or making sure that at least your messaging is on target with maybe their mindset at the time.

and when they’re going to see that ad potentially.

Curtis Hays (13:56.735)
Tom, I’m going to add to that if we circle back to our conversation with Amy Schuster. She said, you know, oftentimes these companies, they want to do that one thing. Like there’s a magic bullet that’s just going to open up the floodgates for leads. We’re going to do Google Ads and we’re going to get a thousand leads this year. Like that one thing, you know, it’s like throwing the dart and hoping it works. So what we’re basically saying and what we’ve been doing with clients is, you know,

Tom Nixon (13:56.796)
Yeah.

Curtis Hays (14:24.635)
It could take a prospect or somebody within your target audience 10, 12 times of seeing your brand before they’re willing to take that next step. So utilizing multiple platforms, so multiple places where those users could potentially be. And let’s face it, we might build an audience with 40,000 people, let’s say inside of LinkedIn, and run an ad for 30 days.

But it doesn’t mean all 40,000 have even opened up the platform in that 30 days. You have some users, probably 40% of the 40,000, maybe only open LinkedIn once a month. So, but they might be really active over on Facebook and LinkedIn, because they’re on it every day. So here, right, so here now we get in front of those people because they’re using it personally. It might be different messaging than we’re using in LinkedIn, but.

Tom Nixon (15:10.727)
Facebook and Instagram.

Curtis Hays (15:20.951)
They’re getting an opportunity to see the brand. Maybe the brand can resonate with them in some way that there’s a message there, the why messaging that you talked about, right? That they may not take action the first time, but they see something that sort of moves them a bit of interest. And then maybe we hit them again on there. Maybe they come to the website and we hit them with a different ad. Or now they see us on LinkedIn and boom, there’s the form and they wanna fill it out.

So this multi-channel or even, they’ll call it omni-channel approach definitely works. So don’t ignore Facebook or Meta when you’re doing advertising.

Tom Nixon (16:05.011)
And that’s where I put a plug in for just bullhorn activity more generally because for some products or services, let’s say a personal injury attorney, for example, just demand is very unpredictable. You don’t know who’s going to get hurt when right? So you can’t target everyone, you know, at the time of injury, maybe they’ll get sophisticated enough to do that. But what you do want is you want a steady stream of awareness campaigns that make the conversion or demand gen campaign.

effective because they’ve been hearing your name, they’ve been understanding your why and all of the stuff over time. And there’s a lot of B2B types of products and services that are that way. You don’t know exactly who’s going to need your product or service when so you need a steady drip and back to your point. It’s like you can’t just turn one thing on and expect the whole world to change, right? Nobody’s that we haven’t been doing any marketing, Katie. So now here, do a Facebook campaign and let me know in 30 days how much business we got. But in terms of

Katie Decker (16:59.375)
Right?

Tom Nixon (17:02.227)
Are there cost advantages? Cause again, I’m sort of a lay person here, but I’ve done some experimenting with it. It seems as though Facebook could be more affordable to reach audiences. Um, so what are the trade-offs in terms of either cost per click or cost per conversion or cost per acquisition and any of those things.

Katie Decker (17:18.742)
So I think just in a general sense, Facebook is cheaper, right? LinkedIn has, I think due to their targeting and sort of what they hone in, right? You’re not getting necessarily behavior targeting on LinkedIn. So they already know like, we’re going to give you business people in these industries and things like that, so you’re going to pay a little bit more. But Facebook, we can go after such a range of different interests and details and…

job titles and all of this other stuff. It’s generally speaking a lot more cost effective. Like we’ve worked with an education company that I think we were, it was costing us $250 per lead on LinkedIn. We ran similar style campaigns, same objective, like getting leads through forums. And I think we were close to like $100 per lead.

You know, now there’s trade-offs in all of that. It varies in like, there’s so many variables in LinkedIn or in Facebook to be able to like give apples to apples generally. But I would say on like a high level, you’re generally going to spend less on campaigns and Facebook and still see results than something like LinkedIn.

Curtis Hays (18:31.955)
And that’s really where you can’t stop your measurement. Again, I’ll circle back to Amy Schuster and some of our conversations with the kind of closed loop marketing that we need to do between sales and marketing, right? So in this education example, Katie’s exactly right with her numbers, right? So we were 250 to $300 per lead inside of LinkedIn on any given campaign or week. We start running Facebook.

we’re getting to 200. But you’ve got to look at the next level to say, are those leads qualified? Are they talking to sales reps? Are they getting demos booked? Are the reps quoting these prospective clients? So again, how is that moving through the sales funnel and then are you getting any closed deals? So in this specific example, the quality was better in LinkedIn, but we were filling the funnel.

with leads that were semi-qualified. And at the bottom, there were still some that were converting to clients. So again, that’s just that trade-off. There might be more work for sales to do email follow-ups and calling these leads, and they might have to do a bit more to nurture the leads that are coming in, but we’re still filling the funnel at the top. And so look at your KPIs and objectives.

and within an organization and then say, okay, how can these platforms help us at different stages of the funnel?

Tom Nixon (20:05.171)
Well, and speaking of prior episodes, I want to go back to the three-parter that we opened this podcast with Mario De Quilla, who, if you miss that one, he has a, an assisted living services, uh, agency in Connecticut. And he would go so far as to not just measure the cost per acquisition, but the cost per lifetime of the client, because that’s really, that’s where the proof really is. So how long do they stay clients? Do they refer another piece of business to you, that type of thing? So that’s when you get really sophisticated.

maybe talk a little bit about what he found there, just at a high level.

Curtis Hays (20:38.643)
Yeah, I’ll just say it does take companies some time to get to that point. And they’re continuing to refine that. But yeah, I mean, essentially every client might be different, but if you can get to that point where you have an average lifetime value that you can calculate based on the product or service that they’re purchasing and get that into a CRM or some sort of tool that we can report on.

Then we get to the point where we can really report on, if we’re looking holistically at all the different platforms, we’re doing something more like a marketing efficiency ratio where you could look over time and say, hey, okay, over the last quarter, over the last year, on all the platforms we spent X, knowing that our attribution isn’t gonna be 100% across each platform, but then saying, what’s the total revenue we got from these marketing activities? And then do that differentiation between revenue,

and cost and there’s your marketing efficiency ratio and say, well, okay, this next quarter, maybe let’s pull Facebook out of the mix and see what happens to that. Me are, does it, does it stay the same or did it, you know, go down and then, then you could come up with the hypothesis that, Oh, Facebook might be even though maybe people don’t fill out forms or they’re not as qualified, uh, right off the bat, it is supporting the other activities we’re doing.

Tom Nixon (22:02.695)
you love those data analytics. God bless your soul. I just want to write Catch a copy. Curtis, I know you wanted to ask Katie before we wrap up something about using Facebook for HR as well. What did you want to explore there?

Curtis Hays (22:04.432)
Yeah.

Katie Decker (22:07.186)
Thank you.

Curtis Hays (22:15.955)
Yeah, so this is a bit tricky to do. And oftentimes, I mean, there’s a few different things with the platforms we should probably mention that. Like you mentioned, personal injury attorneys. You know, none of the platforms really allow us to sort of take advantage of people’s circumstances, let’s say, right? So if somebody has a health condition,

Katie Decker (22:23.567)
Thank you.

Katie Decker (22:27.726)
Thanks for watching!

Katie Decker (22:42.832)
Thank you.

Curtis Hays (22:43.275)
platforms don’t want you taking advantage that they have that health condition and pushing messaging to them. Again, that could affect their well-being potentially. Or take advantage of that, again, to do advertising and sell them a product or service. So you really have to be careful about that. That sort of also exists on the HR side and anti-discrimination and those types of things. So the platforms are really careful when you’re then doing recruiting type campaign.

They wanna actually push you into a different sort of ad platform. But Katie’s actually found success in just general awareness campaigns that you could, if you’re doing, not, I’m not looking for a director of marketing or a director of IT, not that type of stuff. But if you have skilled trades and you need a large volume of those trades, Katie, why don’t you talk about some of the things that you’ve done to just kind of.

build brand awareness in a specific area around those trades to, you know, again, you’re creating awareness to pull people into the brand to convert. They’re just not buying the product. They’re converting in a different way, which is filling out an application or interest in, you know, employment.

Katie Decker (23:59.929)
Yeah, we’ve, um, I mean, we’ve been working with quite a few clients now to do sort of these hiring style campaigns. And to your point, it is, you know, that awareness piece. I mean, you know, nowadays I feel like everyone’s hiring, but for, you know, every sign that you drive past on the road, it’s like, how many do you really see anymore? We’re kind of like blocking those out.

Tom Nixon (24:19.583)
Hehehehe

Katie Decker (24:22.482)
Um, but so now you can utilize Facebook as a platform for that to basically just say, Hey, we’re hiring now. Like if, if we’re in your wheelhouse, right, let us know. And while you can’t get into specific targeting again, like maybe something you would try on LinkedIn, you can still, you know, go after locations, like certain locations, if you’re hiring, you know, for a shop in one spot or, you know, an office and in another, like you can get.

specific on your location. But there are limitations now with, you know, you can’t discriminate based on age or gender has never really been an option in hiring campaigns. But you know, people that are going to maybe specific job fairs or have like you have some options, it’s just much more limited. But we’ve done it and we’ve been successful. I mean, we’re bringing in applicants for one client at I think it’s $7 per applicant.

Whereas they’re using other platforms like the Indeeds and whatever kind of tools that they have available online. And for those, they could be paying $20 to $50 per applicant. And all the feedback, I mean, kind of back to your point, Kurt, and sort of like the quality of leads, it’s sort of like, okay, what’s the quality of candidate? Because again, now…

knowing that we’re like disrupting these people in the middle of their day. They’re not out looking for a job on Facebook, right? But like getting good people in, like have you actually hired? And, you know, the feedback that we keep getting is yes. So we just keep running the campaigns and they’re bringing in new applicants. So.

Tom Nixon (25:52.439)
hehe

Tom Nixon (26:05.384)
And I think it’s so many industries that are in constant recruiting mode. So like hospitality, you brought up education, teacher shortage going on forever. The skilled trades, you know, you can’t get a contractor to come to your house anymore because they don’t have the people. So it’s like I would think that’s when you need to cast a wide net like consistently as opposed to bullseyes where you’re targeting specific D.O.O. or something like that, then it can be effective. So that’s interesting. Very interesting.

Katie Decker (26:29.662)
Yeah.

Curtis Hays (26:31.539)
Yeah, COVID really drove this and it was about that time we started doing a lot of this. So maybe a little bit before then, but certainly ramped up that hiring. Again, those in the skilled trades or even the low skilled trades where you needed larger amounts of people. It was just a very cost effective platform because like Katie said, I would say $50 per applicant on something like Indeed is actually probably pretty low.

Tom Nixon (27:00.992)
Yeah.

Curtis Hays (27:01.335)
I know some companies are paying a few hundred dollars per applicant on something like Indeed. So that can be pretty expensive in those platforms. So to, you know, all we’re saying is think outside the box with some of these things and try some things and it might work for you.

Katie Decker (27:18.102)
Thank you.

Tom Nixon (27:18.715)
Yep. Well, that’s a good final thought from Curtis. Final thought from you, Katie, if you have one piece of advice to a B2B company who was on the fence about Facebook or meta advertising, what would you tell them either how to get started or what would you tell them to keep in mind?

Katie Decker (27:34.819)
I mean, honestly, I would say if you’re on the fence, just try it. You know, like you can, you can do things on the platform for, you know, a hundred dollars even just to start out. Right. So it doesn’t have to be a big endeavor. If you’ve got a video on like, Hey, here, here’s who we are, or a piece of content that you know is valuable to people.

Tom Nixon (27:37.608)
Hehehe

Katie Decker (27:54.806)
Get it out there, try it. The biggest thing to start with is really knowing your audience. So if you don’t know that, maybe go back and think about the platform once you know who you wanna get in front of. But I think there’s a lot of opportunity on it and it is underutilized by businesses that aren’t selling a product and there’s still a place for it. So try it.

Tom Nixon (28:16.839)
Yeah. And you just triggered a final thought for me. I wasn’t going to have one. But you triggered something is that, you know, historically speaking or generally speaking, bull horns advertising. So when you’re advertising a cross market, sorry, mass media, say radio, TV, print, things like that, there’s a lot of waste that goes into that. And you’re paying for the waste because you’re paying for the reach. Right. So if I did an ad on television and there’s probably a small segment of that population that is even going to be in the position to react or respond to the ad.

This allows us to kind of do both. This is, again, the mirror getting targeted about who we’re trying to get in learning and refeeding that information into the algorithm, but doing so in a mass medium kind of approach. So very interesting. Any comments on that before we wrap? How about just?

Curtis Hays (29:06.867)
No, I just want to say thank you, Katie, for coming on. And we’re going to have you back on again in a short period of time to cover some other topics as well. So Katie’s kind of a jack of all trades, but she is master of quite a few. So a couple of these master kind of topics, we’re going to bring her back for some advice.

Tom Nixon (29:15.836)
Yes.

Tom Nixon (29:24.951)
Awesome. Well, Katie Decker, thank you for getting us out of the humdrum of LinkedIn and over to the fun area of Meta Facebook and Instagram, but alas back to work. So thank you all for listening and watching bull horns and bulls eyes. It will be back next week with another episode.