Going Meta on Bullhorns and Bullseyes

Tom Nixon 0:07
Welcome back Curtis, to bullhorns and bullseyes. I can see you are dressed for the occasion.

Curtis Hays 0:14
I am just trying to play the part here.

Tom Nixon 0:17
Well, for those who are just listening on the podcast, Curtis is sporting a rootin tootin, cowboy hat and cowboy boots.

Curtis Hays 0:25
Yeah, we can see the hat if you’re watching video, I’m not showing off the Spurs. No spurs, no, well,

Tom Nixon 0:32
this is gonna be a very meta episode today, because we are on bull horns of bull’s eyes, we’re gonna be talking about bull horns and bull’s eyes, small b, small b, and why we named the podcast, bullhorns and bullseyes, Big B’s Big B. So anyways, let’s start with maybe a step back, if you don’t mind. And we can tell people a little bit about what we do as individuals, because I think that’s part and parcel to how we got here today. So why don’t you start just a little bit about what your specialization is.

Curtis Hays 1:08
Yeah, so my background started in it. And I bought 20 years ago was supporting small businesses, the sort of that was the boom of email, and everybody wanting blackberries, and getting, you know, their business email, corporate email on their phone, and it sort of opened up this window to these businesses, you know, being able to do that, you know, the capabilities, the larger companies have that capability. But so so that whole mobility, boom, we rode in the IT space, and we helped a lot of companies for about five, seven years. And in helping those companies as they continue to transition their technology. We had then the boom of the CRM, Salesforce, HubSpot, and those types of tools, and I saw myself transitioning from integration, you know, sort of email and internal systems and those types of things to supporting sales and marketing organizations on the CRM side. And, and so in that transition, I saw gaps from a technology perspective that a lot of these marketing companies that were being asked to manage these solutions for companies struggled a bit on the technology side. So I jumped in and eventually started my own company, just Collideascope and we, we essentially support companies that are using those CRMs. But from a digital perspective, not only that, the technical side, but we’re also providing additional digital services like SEO, SEM, website development, website design, content, marketing, those types of things. So that’s that’s pretty much how you and I have gotten gotten to know Yeah, that’s right. I started

Tom Nixon 2:57
my career in the late 90s. In public relations. Things were a lot different back then people were just getting a hold of fancy things like email and BlackBerry’s and spent most of my early career in public relations. And then, kind of like your story PR really evolved as media evolved in the internet evolved in, you know, you fast forward to even present day or maybe 10 years ago, that what a PR firm looks like, and what an advertising agency looks like, those things started to merge and meld and almost be indistinguishable. Because now we’re just talking about different ways to get, you know, your brand and your message in front of audiences. Right, I did have an English major English degree in college, which was the one thing that I was getting A’s in, in. And if you fast forward all the way to today, I have carved out a niche, you know, as my career has evolved, and I’ve gone from PR guy to integrated marketing guy to digital marketing guy to whatever kind of Swiss Army Knife I’ve formed a niche in content development, applying that English degree after all these years, and so I focus mostly on content development and content strategy for marketing. And that could be it’s mostly the written word, but it’s also things like this podcasts, audio, video content, anything that AIDS a brand and telling a story that’s compelling to get in front of the audience’s that they’re looking to attract. So when you and I met back the present day, so I was doing more of a brand strategy, type of service offering, which is still built into everything that you and I do today. But all of these different tools that, you know, in some cases replaced the old tools, but in other cases, they were add ons. And now we’ve got a very complex Marketing Toolkit, a very complex media ecosystem. And it’s not as direct as it was back in your day to say, well, let’s get you hooked up with some blackberries or in my day, let’s get you on The cover of Crain’s Detroit business, it’s a whole new ballgame. And you and I have arrived at this conclusion that the most effective way to to attract audiences and then ultimately market to them and convert them to do something that you might be sign up for something or buy something is this combination of bull horns in bull’s eyes. So if you look at my career path, I’ve been a kind of a bullhorn guy, right? If you think you picture, somebody holding a megaphone, and they’re trying to, you know, get the message out to anyone within earshot, as many people as possible. It’s one, too many. That’s what a bullhorn is. Right? It’s like it, that’s still a critical part of any marketing program. bull’s eyes, or your baileywick.

Curtis Hays 5:48
Yeah. And that’s actually a bit of where the name Collideascope came from the scope in Collideascope was kind of some Precision Marketing is what our vision was right, using data and analytics to improve the types of things that we might be doing for clients. And we, I would say, we bleed into almost what we would call sales activities instead of just marketing activities. Because a lot of times we’re doing lead generation, which, which you could argue as a sales activity. And so, you know, with that customers want high conversion rates and low cost per acquisition, and, you know, some very precise things. And I know, I’m not a hunter, but through some family members know, is some precision sort of marksman, right? And there’s all these calculations that go into whether your target shooting long range or hunting of, you know, the wind direction and the distance and you know, fine tuning your scope so that you hit that shot. And so it was really that that whole scope part of Collideascope was, how can we be more precise with the types of activities that you know, we’re doing for clients, and that’s

Tom Nixon 7:10
what’s you know, amazing about the ultra modern like, to the date, technology that’s available is you can literally pinpoint a person, if you want to, if you can associate a name with an activity they’ve taken on your website, or wherever, which we’ll get into, or an IP dress up, I’m sorry, IP address, or small groups of like minded or like, you know, acting individuals, which was not really possible other than through a one to one sales channel. So we’ll talk x I agree, I think lead gen is sort of this space that lives between marketing and between sales, but maybe just some definition or some examples of terms. So I use, you know, PR, it’s an example of a bullhorn methodology. Classic advertising could be considered that anything that’s one to many is a bullhorn. So your newsletter that goes out to many people, your social media, when you’re posting just to your organically to your pages, those are one too many. And it could be, you know, blogging could be one too many. You’re publishing on a website, you’re trying to get it out to many. So what are some examples of you mentioned SEO, and SEM and maybes spell those out for people aren’t familiar? What are some of the bullseye activities or tools in your toolkit?

Curtis Hays 8:26
Yeah, so Google ads, is your search ads that you would see. Other advertising activities that would happen on social media, so your bullhorn might be organic, but you can certainly use it to target individuals within social media and be pretty precise with what you’re doing, whether you’re, say on LinkedIn and targeting specific job titles or specific industries and those types of things. Or in an E commerce space, and, you know, you’re selling backpacks and your target audience are people who like the outdoors and hike and those types of things. And so you can use those platforms to be pretty precise with with your targeting. You know, I would say, on the analytics side there, you know, there’s been more of a demand from that space as well. So not just sort of the outreach activities, like your advertising. But Analytics has become more of a marketing function. Whether it’s segmenting users who come on your website, and providing them a more personalized experience, or analyzing that data based on user segments and those types of things. So I think we’ll we’ll end up with various guests get into some of those, you know, specific things. SEO could be broad in some way, but that the strategies around what you’re doing for search engine optimization, the keywords you’re targeting, and, you know, those things, those those are typically aligned to, you know, some sort of various specific strategy of the type of user who might be doing that search or asking that question. In a search engine, you’re targeting that that person or a segment of individuals who might be interested in that product or service. And then

Tom Nixon 10:19
the secret sauce, in our view, at least I’ll speak for myself. No, I’ll speak for you. Because I’ve heard you say to clients, when they want to do digital advertising, I mean, you often ask them early on, what are you doing from a branding perspective? Like, what are you doing to get your message out there does the market know of you? It’s so the secret sauce, I think, and I’ll get your perspective is when you’re combining these methodology so that when you’re targeting a specific individual, you’ve already laid the big picture groundwork, maybe through some bullhorn activities. And that person is more likely to convert because they recognize the brand, they trust the brand, maybe even certainly true of thought leadership marketing, where you might spend six months just sharing activity before a prospect is in market and then takes an activity that puts them into more of the bull’s eyes activity. So why do you ask clients? Are you doing anything? Are you doing any branding? Because some of these clients might not even understand exactly what you mean? Or what the distinction is between what they’re asking you to do and what you’re asking if they’re doing.

Curtis Hays 11:19
Right? That’s a good question. And so what what we find is, really anyone can go to these tools, be it no matter in Facebook, Instagram, or Google or LinkedIn, tick tock, they can. They can create an ad, they can put in money and they can, they can serve it out to an audience. And drive people to a website, a landing page sheet or something like that. And so here you are in sort of a sea of other marketers with potentially no differentiator. And then the key with that, even if you do come up with, say, some differentiator in your messaging to get clicks, or to get people to take action on the website, will that experience stay the same, once that person becomes a customer and interacts with your business and those types of things. So that brand creates that cohesiveness for that user sort of journey and experience with your company. And it allows me as a marketer, and an advertiser to take that brand and put it out in the marketplace in a very specific way, I now have like guardrails that I need to work within. And, and that’s going to benefit that whole entire experience to make sure again, that matches and aligns to, you know, who the company really is, and who they’re who they’re going after, it helps to bring the right people through. Oftentimes, you can get the wrong people just caught up in your advertising. But if you have the right messaging, you might weed them out. Whether they don’t click or they don’t fill out a form or something like that, because they realize it’s not for them. And that’s okay. Right. And it’s not all done, you’re not wasting, you’re not wasting sales people’s times with with calls that are relevant, and those types of things. So, yeah, it’s it’s hugely critical. And the question I’ll ask every new prospect that wants to work with us is, do you have a brand standard or brand guidelines that we can use? And if not, you know, okay, well, let’s, let’s bring somebody in who can maybe help you develop something? Yep.

Tom Nixon 13:42
So now I’m gonna get a little meta here, again, because I’m going to talk about our logo, but it’s relevant. It’s not just to brag about the great design work that our friend Dan put into it, but there was, there’s a reason so obviously, the most obvious thing you see when you look at the bull horns and bull’s eyes, logo is the bullhorn. Right? The second thing that you notice is inside the sort of mouth of the megaphone is a target, right? And you have to look really closely to get the super duper pay off, which is you can see a little arrow that’s going back towards the target or into the microphone sort of swimming against stream against, you know, the, the sound coming out of the megaphone. Why do I bring all that away? Because it’s clever, because now you gotta go look at it, see if you can find all those things. But see, which is most importantly is there’s this, you and I have discussed, like there’s this handoff that happens between marketing and sales. Sometimes it’s effective, and sometimes it’s very ineffective. We’ll talk about where I’ll ask you to talk about where some of those breakdowns are. But in terms of that arrow going back to the microphone, or megaphone. What makes it so effective is when you can take your granular Bullseye data, your sales data, or your user data conversion data and feed that back into the marketing in our first three episodes with our guests. Mario Aquila. Is that We all talked about was closing this loop between marketing and sales. So what are some of those breaking points? Or why do some of those breaks occur between marketing and sales? Who are you would think ostensibly working towards the same ends? And then how do you fix that by taking your sales or user data? And have it inform the marketing programs?

Curtis Hays 15:20
Yeah. So we can really geek out on some things here for we’re gonna have quite a few. Yeah, we’re gonna have quite a few episodes covering this topic. And some great guests who know more than I do about fixing these types of problems and organizations. What I typically see is a lack of process within organizations and process could be, I suppose, broadly defined as a number of things, whether they don’t have the right tools in place. And a tool could be as simple as a spreadsheet, you could use a Google spreadsheet, it doesn’t have to be a Salesforce or HubSpot, or something super sophisticated. But you have to have people who are dedicated to collecting that data entering and updating that data. And then that that allows for that feedback loop. So everybody’s sort of bought bought inside. See, now you’re talking about culture, and making sure your teams are properly trained to use the tools that you’re implemented. There’s, there’s really a lot that that can go into this.

Tom Nixon 16:25
Just real quick to interject, Mario preaches the transparency in the in the compliance, he wants to be able to see everything and then he wants everyone to comply to what everyone agrees do, which is the process you define. So sorry to interrupt. Go ahead.

Curtis Hays 16:37
No, you’re good. Yeah. And he says, if it’s if it’s not in Salesforce, it doesn’t exist. PicsArt. So happen, you know, don’t come talk to him. Yeah, don’t come talk to me about a lead if I can’t go and look it up in Salesforce, because I won’t listen. So the feedback loop, then you’re talking about is more or less twofold. First, we can analyze that data. And we’re talking about something real and sort of tangible, right? It’s not like, I feel like the phone’s not ringing, or I feel like we’re not getting a lot of leads the last two weeks. We, if you were to say that we’d want to look at data and say, okay, is that true? Right, let’s, let’s validate that is a true or not. And then if it is true, what’s causing that, and then let’s go down or up the funnel, so to speak and and see what’s happening. And then pull whatever levers we need to pull to make a change. If there’s something it could just be seasonality or something like that. So just so that first point is really just having access to the data and us being able to look at it and have a conversation around it. The second piece is now we’re able to actually take that data and feed it back to the tools. Google wouldn’t be the primary one and tell Google in a lead gen environment, this would be offline conversion data. So we want to import the qualified leads or good leads and the closed leads, import it back to Google, Google learns off that data. And over time, the algorithm improves in your advertising to go and find more of those types of people, whether it’s because of their previous behavior, because of fits their demographics, whatever that might be. In an E commerce world, that happens in real time, I go to a website, I buy a product, I check out the cart, that data is fed back to Google immediately they know what you purchased, what your experience was on the website, what pages you looked at, what the total cost of the cart was, and those folks, so everything

Tom Nixon 18:56
else that you do, right, it’s not just that session, it’s

Curtis Hays 18:59
all of it. Right? It’s that session plus everything else,

Tom Nixon 19:02
right buys this. So what websites does he rank? How long does he go spend on YouTube? All that stuff? So sorry.

Curtis Hays 19:08
Yep. So again, if I’m selling backpacks, and you know, you’re you’re a hiker, and you come and you like the outdoors, and you bought my backpack? Yeah, I’m gonna take that demographic and behavioral stuff that that is off of your user persona, and and then go and find more people like that. Or if you didn’t check out, then that’s telling Google, okay, maybe this one wasn’t right. And then decides more people like that it wasn’t right to send them to, and now start doing it. What’s that? What that’s causing? I will say, we might with some future guests get in specifics on this, but Google doesn’t want us to be as precise than with some of our targeting but we still get very specific in our keyword research and we used to talk about longtail keywords and like all of these types of things. Google say now you as The advertiser, I don’t want you to be concerned about the longtail, I want you to put in the broader search terms. And then let me worry about all of these other things because I might catch that user that doesn’t use that, longtail. But it still might be a good fit for you. So that’s probably as generic as I can kind of, you know, sort of drill it down in sort of layman’s terms. But like I said, I think we’ll have some, some guests who get into specifics on this as well go in

Tom Nixon 20:25
to use that example, Google’s goal is still to be precise, right? Going back to the whole Bullseye methodology, they’re just, they feel like their algorithms are better trained to go and figure out what those precision points might be. And so that’s kind of the broader point is that was making is that as you maybe embark on a campaign, let’s say you’re starting from scratch, right? The precision sharpens over time. So it’s like, initially you might be doing, especially if you haven’t done any advertising prior, or don’t have a long history with your brand, you might be doing some trial and error at the beginning and then learning. And then not only are you learning, so you’re gathering data, then you’re feeding it back into the marketing machine, Google and others and in Google and others are learning. And then eventually you get to the point where your spend is very efficient. But you have to get to that point, you have to not just rely on a bullhorn, shoot something to the world, hey, I’m having a sale, and then go look at the data on Saturday and say, Well, why didn’t anyone buy anything? You know? Right. So yeah, how does? Go ahead.

Curtis Hays 21:27
And let me let me share it just small, just to put this into numbers. Okay, we’ve, I’d say this offline conversion stuff, a year and a half ago, I think started to really take effect. And that was with the launch of performance Max, which was a new campaign, campaign type. And Google, we really started embracing it with many of our clients in q3 of last year. Separate from Mario, I’ve got another client did similar things as Mario, we were in our traditional search campaigns with our standard tracking, and all of that at about $120 cost per lead cost per conversion, they were pretty happy with that. And there was a return on investment, or at least breakeven every month, which was happy because they were growing. We looked at last month’s data, we’re now at $35. cost per lead. So we dropped that from 120, down to 35. And the only thing we started doing a year ago was feeding the algorithm. That’s really the only thing we did differently. Same thing with Mario. There were some other sort of internal tactical changes, you know that we’re done. But those were all done so that we could feed the algorithm more data. And there’s more things that we can do. We’re looking at other other opportunities to give to give Google data and kind of let it run with what it knows about the business and what it knows about the business’s customers and then find find more customers.

Tom Nixon 23:01
Yep. And, you know, Mario brought up the point too, is when you’re calculating ROI on say, cost of acquisition, the thing you have to factor in somehow I don’t know how you specifically recommend doing this mathematically? Again, I was an English major. But you got to talk about the lifetime revenue have an acquisition, which you don’t know at the point of conversion, right? So if it costs, let’s say, $120, to convert a lead, but that client is lifetime, and then they refer three other clients that didn’t cost you anything. I mean, that’s exponential return on investment. So are you actually doing that math? Is Mario doing that math? I think you said he was. Yeah,

Curtis Hays 23:39
Mario is for sure. I think companies who do that, even if it’s a, even if it’s an estimation, just putting a value to that conversion helps. Because it’s just another measurement tool. For us to, for us to look at it’s another good metric. So so if you were to say, you know, I really don’t know, but, you know, I’m willing to pay for an email list or I’m willing to pay for, you know, specific contacts that would be leads, could I put a value at a lead that I got on Facebook, or a value of a lead that I got on Google? And then start to look at your sales data, once you’re tracking and say, okay, for every 10 leads we get, how many do we close? Do we convert one or two of those to clients? And then those how much expected revenue do we get from those? And you could put that you could do that math on a napkin in most cases. And then just just, you know, again, either roll that up to what are you willing to spend for for lead, but even better, get to that potential lifetime value and allow us to calculate off of that, especially if there is a big difference. You know, you could have a client that is 120,000 Dollar lifetime value versus a client that’s $40,000 lifetime value. If we’re able to push that lifetime value to Google, then you’re telling Google, these are more valuable leads than these leads. So again, you know, go and find us the more valuable ones if you can. Yeah.

Tom Nixon 25:15
And the other thing, that’s the data, and I’ve heard you, by the way, insist on this, like, I think I call it maybe you call it the mutual accountability meeting, which the sales and marketing teams get together, and they share data back and forth just very openly, honestly, there’s no wrong answers, we just want to know, you already talked about how you can feed it back into Google and their algorithm will do its thing and get smarter and be more efficient. It also helps you shape the bullhorn activities. So maybe we’ve hit on a message that is really good at converting that we haven’t amplified it enough. So maybe we take you know where you’re writing to market with three or four messages, maybe it only needs to be one or two, because we pinpointed something. Or maybe now the media is become obvious. So at the beginning, like I say we’re doing trial and error, we might be on Google, we might be on LinkedIn, we might be on Facebook, we might even be doing some direct mail, we’re on billboards, we take all that data, including the offline conversion data, which people tend to ignore in the modern media environment, because everything’s so it’s accessible with clicks, and etc. But you take all of that data, and then you say, based on this, we’re being really efficient, efficient Surprise, surprise, with direct mail and outdoor say, just to poke at it. And we’re being less effective with search or something, whatever it might be. So the point is, you’re informing both the message and the modality of and you’re getting more efficient that way as well.

Curtis Hays 26:37
Yeah, yeah, the accountability idea really stems from some, my wife, Stephanie, who you know, well, and helps us out a kaleidoscope. So she was in corporate sales for 15 years, and selling very high end equipment to CEOs and CFOs. And she used to have weekly accountability calls with her sales manager, where they would talk about her pipeline, and what deals she was working on. And those deals have potentially had a lifetime of six months to a year or sometimes longer. That’s how long it took to close, you know, a potential opportunity. And so they always had to be talking about it. You know, what are we doing this week? What do we have any visits planned? Are we showing them any demos, you know, those types of things. And so that really, as I was doing marketing kind of hit home, that that a lot of times that data and marketing kind of setup in some sort of cloud that like nobody really understood what it meant. And it was very easy for a marketing company to sort of talk circles around the customer. And then not really to understand like what it was, and you could even take something that is bad data and make it look like good data. All and really interpretation. So I think in creating a sort of set of expectations of what’s important to the client, and then having a conversation, so some KPIs and agreeing on those KPIs, and then centering your monthly conversations with the client around those KPIs. Then avoids it avoids me falling into a trap where maybe I don’t feel good about what happened the last month and so I start fibbing sort of speak and making it look better than what it really is. It’s better if you just get honest, say like, man, what we did last month didn’t work. Let’s talk about what we could do differently, right, let’s get this on the right track. And it’s almost, you know, made me feel better about let’s just hit the hard truths and, and move things in the right direction. And you got to have good data and have mutual understanding of what the KPIs are, in order to in order to be able to do that. And it’s worked out I think, not every client may appreciate that. But the ones that that do, it’s a good relationship, I think it just creates a an environment that helps create a good relationship between you and the client when you have that mutual understanding and mutual accountability. And it’s a little easier for me to ask for stuff than to say hey, I’m willing to put up you know, some accountability on my end, are you willing on your end to say share it share your sales data with me? And let me know what’s actually going on inside the business. And

Tom Nixon 29:35
I know you said earlier that it doesn’t have to be a sophisticated tool like a Salesforce you can start with Excel but the modern tools available that didn’t exist maybe 510 years ago like a HubSpot creates the visibility of what’s happening with a lead and something I now have validation that something I suspected all along which was marketing sending you leads. Why isn’t sales following up with these like, forget about converting, no one’s even touched this prospect what’s going on. And of course, you know, the marketing and sales teams would always be at odds, you need to send us more leads while we’ve sent you great leads. And you could just easily in the past, just sort of put, you know, draw a line in the sand, say, I’m doing my job, you’re not doing yours. But this is now these tools allow us to collaborate and like you said, be honest, look at the hard truth, and then say, alright, this prospect came in. Now sales is telling me this is a bad prospect. They followed up, even though they didn’t put it in Salesforce, they said they did. But let’s explain to marketing, why this is a bad lead, why this is a bad prospect. Once we know that we can change our behaviors. But if there’s this line in the sand, that this activity just goes on forever, and leads don’t get followed up on and marketing doesn’t change what they’re doing. And this has to stop. That’s why we’re doing this podcast.

Curtis Hays 30:50
Yeah, yeah. No, you’re exactly right. I think what I wanted to do when I came to you with this podcast was to really allow my customers who were able to sort of solve this issue, I guess, you could say, in in sales and marketing. And it’s a different challenge. And you’re in a different place, every every company is at a different spot. But a lot of people have gone through this journey, who I think can help, you know, other people who are either in the midst of it or about to get into it. And there are different ways to approach it. But I think fundamentally, there are some some keys to, to setting up a good relationship between sales and marketing that allow you to definitely close that loop. And hopefully, you know, move forward in a successful way. And

Tom Nixon 31:42
I would add 1/3 leg to the stool. So you said sales and marketing, but also if you listen to, and I would encourage everyone to check out the first three episodes and learn from Mario, including his mistakes, which he’s totally transparent about what he learned. The third leg is operations. So it’s not all about the bull horns. And it’s really not even all about the bull’s eyes. So we could talk about how we combine those. But if there are not internal processes to make sure that that accountability exists, that there’s a process for converting marketing, qualified leads to sales, qualified leads to closings, all of this stuff has to happen in unison, otherwise, the bullhorn just keeps screaming, the bull’s eyes just keep spending money and nothing changes. So that third leg, and you know, if Mario was here was here, I know what he’d say, because he was here. And he said, You have to have these processes, you do have to have complete transparency in 100% compliance.

Curtis Hays 32:34
Yeah, I would say the other thing on the operation side, too, is finance. But if it’s the CFO, or the CEO, who’s in charge of the budget, and making decisions there, that you’ve got to have buy in from them, and I think a level of input from them as well, who really have a pulse on what’s happening with the business from a financial perspective, because that’s ultimately who really sales is reporting, you know, back into if it’s a chief revenue officer, or a CFO or the CEO. You know, that’s, they’re gonna want to see results. They’re the ones who are going to, you know, release funds, if you want funds. And, and if they are releasing funds, we’ve talked about ROI, they’re the ones that are gonna, you know, they’re gonna ask you, you spent, I gave you $100,000, this last quarter, what did you do with it? And what did we get out of it? So, yeah, that definitely is a third leg. And the whole thing could tip over without it. All

Tom Nixon 33:33
right, partner. Well, I think we, I think we covered the ground here. I’m trying to find another cowboy pond, but I’ll just say it was a rootin tootin. Good time and a wild ride in. If anyone has any questions about bull horns and bull hot, what is the bull horns and fullsize? Where should they go?

Curtis Hays 33:54
Oh, good question. Well, we post a lot on LinkedIn. So I would say you know, find us on LinkedIn, for sure. And feel free to ask some questions. Or if you have some thoughts on topics you’d like us to cover or some insights that you might have, feel free to share those. There, otherwise they can go on the collideascope website, the podcast is there. And then we’re on Spotify, Apple, YouTube, just search bullhorns and bullseyes. You should be able to find it all the

Tom Nixon 34:20
links in the show notes and on the website. So cool. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks everyone for coming back. And thank you Curtis and this has been another episode of Bullhorns in Bullseyes.