Hunting vs. Fishing

Tom Nixon (00:01.656)
Welcome back everyone to Bullhorns in Bull’s Eyes. Of course, like you just heard, this is the podcast where promotion meets precision, which I believe we’re going to get into in detail today. Curtis, I don’t want to tease you, but it now being firmly into March here in the Midwest, we’re starting to see signs of spring and summer can’t be too far behind. I know that you have a rifle license. I know you are a fisherman of sorts.

Which do you prefer this coming summer hunting or fishing?

Curtis Hays (00:34.004)
I, so I grew up doing both quite frequently, and decided later in life that fishing was more my game. So I’m actually sitting above the boat right now. My office is in the garage. I, that’s upstairs right below me, right underneath me is the boat. And, she’s all ready to go when…

Tom Nixon (00:44.718)
Hmm.

Curtis Hays (01:00.514)
When the weather turns here, which we’re close, I think the ice is melted. I’m not an ice fisherman. I not ice fish. But I’ll be out there looking for bass and walleye for sure.

Tom Nixon (01:12.888)
Good. Well, your preference for fishing might come in handy today because we have a guest who wants to talk to us today about metaphorical hunting and fishing and why you might want to do the latter as opposed to the former. So colleague of yours that I’ve met in the past. So why don’t you welcome our guest on today?

Curtis Hays (01:29.762)
Yes, so Catherine LeBrun, who I got to work with at a previous company, and she’s a marketing executive. And she’s I know great with communications and branding. And so we had a great time working together. Again, in a previous company.

And you wrote this post, Catherine, that really struck a chord with me. You had been pretty active on LinkedIn lately and we put out a lot of content there. So I think it was back in December, but maybe a fishing trip that you took with your son slightly earlier than December, but you were posting a picture of you fishing, I think it was, and talking about something to do with salespeople should be

Fishermen rather than hunters. Is that right?

Katherine LeBrun (02:25.019)
That’s right. Yes, was actually, well, it a fishing trip with my sisters. grew up, my dad would take us fishing twice a year over in Eastern Washington. I lived in the Pacific Northwest. And it got me thinking about just the classic term of hunting when you’re an SDR or you’re an account executive, you’re a sales representative, and just how ill-fitting that analogy truly is and how

Curtis Hays (02:29.559)
Okay.

Katherine LeBrun (02:54.605)
Fishing, well, it’s not a perfect analogy and hopefully, you know, the animal rights people and vegetarians don’t hate me for that. It’s actually, you know, a much closer analogy to what people in sales and marketing should be doing and how they should be approaching their customers.

Curtis Hays (03:12.855)
Yeah, it really resonated with me and I know we’re going to dive into it today, but I feel like, Tom, it ties a bit to the conversation we just had with Amy Schuster. And we were talking about handraisers and learners and this big difference between the two. it’s made me realize too that like when I got into marketing, I do feel like I was doing marketing. Like Amy said, SEO is like where you start in marketing because you’re trying to get your thought leadership and your content and those types of things in front of your customer.

because they’re trying to solve whatever problem or pain they have. And then my customers were really focused on generating leads. And so my mindset shifted. And now I’m doing Google Ads and Lead Gen and LinkedIn and on Facebook. But that seems more like a sales activity than it does a marketing activity. It’s almost these bullseye techniques.

Are these sales activities? Because it’s more on generating leads. It’s really made me think twice now about what marketing really means and really the craft that your background is in and yours too, Catherine, and content and solving problems that your customers have and making sure that you get that content out in front of them and you’re speaking their language.

Tom Nixon (04:35.554)
Yeah. Well, as someone who has two very successful brothers in sales, I shied away from it from day one. Why did it go into marketing? I’m the type of guy that will not be the life of the party. I’m a wallflower. And so if you don’t come up and talk to me, I will not come talk to you, which gets to maybe why marketing was more of a fit for me. And Catherine, I’m more familiar with the analogy and sales where they talk about hunters and farmers.

And they recognize there’s a different skill set between somebody who’s willing to go out in on the hunt as opposed to somebody who wants to let the fruit grow and they’ll pick it when it’s right. You’ve done a twist on that, which we want to get into Fisher’s in a little bit, but why is hunting the wrong term? Maybe as it applies to marketing.

Katherine LeBrun (05:22.181)
Yeah, it’s a great question. And I would even say it’s the wrong term when it applies to sales. I’d be so bold to go that far. mean, hunting implies aggression. It implies dominance. It implies that you are seeking out something or someone that doesn’t want to be found. And you are then chasing them down, capturing them, potentially even attacking them into submission.

That does not sound like a healthy relationship between a company and a customer. If you see your customers as these people that are hiding from you and you have to use the best sales tactics that you have and your skill at capturing them is really all about you versus about the value that you’re offering that would bring customers to you, you’re applying, you’re…

You’re approaching it in a very aggressive manner that often turns customers off.

Tom Nixon (06:27.928)
So how do then fishers, what is their mindset that you think is applicable and appropriate?

Katherine LeBrun (06:32.975)
Yeah, mean, so fishing, would say, again, no offense to the hunters out there. I feel like I’m going to be making enemies left and right here with this analogy. But, you know, when you fish, you have to study your environment. You have to understand who like what type of fish you’re actually fishing for, what type of bait they might be interested in, what level of depth do you have to drop your line?

Tom Nixon (06:40.334)
Thank

Katherine LeBrun (06:59.261)
you have to cast your net or however you’re choosing to fish. And you have to adapt to what will draw the fish towards you and get them to engage with you. And a lot of it is just passive. mean, it’s standing there offering something out there, hoping that they’ll come to you. And when they do, I mean, and this is where the analogy breaks down a little bit, there still is that kind of capture.

You know, there’s a level of, I would say trickery to phishing that you never want to have in marketing and sales. Even the term bait and switch is something that’s, you know, a negative thing that pulls on phishing. it’s a much more, I would say, engaging way to draw your customers towards you in a way that they see value in what you’re putting out.

Tom Nixon (07:30.286)
Okay.

Tom Nixon (07:51.95)
Well, let’s ask the fisherman himself here, the expert. So, he’s taking off his hunting hat. Hold on. Now he’s got a fisherman’s cap on. Okay. You need some of the, the hooks that don’t they usually attach the hooks and the, yeah, and the bobbers and see, can tell I’m not a fisherman, but, you do, well, let’s go back to one. Cause you brought it up the last episode. Amy Schuster was on talking about hand raisers and learners.

Katherine LeBrun (07:59.517)
Thank

Curtis Hays (08:07.285)
I got, I got the, I’m ready for some analogies here, so.

Tom Nixon (08:18.368)
Learners are probably those people who aren’t ready to be hunted yet and maybe not even be ready to be fished yet, but they might be out there taking nibbles. So explain from a fisherman’s perspective, why you were dropping a line and why you might be needing to be patient to find the time when the learner says I’m ready to take a bite and now I’m a hand raiser.

Curtis Hays (08:37.857)
Yeah, I think the biggest thing I’ve learned both in fishing as well as in marketing is research. understanding who your customer is, understanding who the fish is, what do they eat, what the conditions are, what’s the temperature of water, what depths are you at, all these things that Catherine mentioned. think you fly fish, right? Are you fly fishing out there in Washington or a different kind?

Katherine LeBrun (09:05.126)
I’m mostly trolling, but yeah, my fly fishing is not super strong.

Curtis Hays (09:07.285)
Okay, well.

Tom Nixon (09:10.968)
Trolling is a great analogy to marketing in content marketing.

Curtis Hays (09:16.195)
Okay, so I’m gonna talk about that. So when I started fishing, we got our boat a number of years ago, and we were on a small lake here in southern part of Michigan that was nearby, filled mostly with largemouth and then some perch and other, you know, sunfish. And I was getting back into fishing again, you you can always use the worm and whatever. But somebody told me, hey, dude, you got to learn the drop shot, actually.

was my mom’s cousin who’s in his 90s who’s been fishing his entire life. He’s like, most versatile setup you’re ever going to need. so I learned the drop shot, which is basically, if I can pull this out here, let’s see. I am. you basically, the weight is at the bottom and your lure is like a foot up above it.

Tom Nixon (10:05.472)
He’s ready with prof, ladies and gentlemen. So if you’re listening to this podcast, go to YouTube and watch this.

Curtis Hays (10:15.053)
basically. And if it’s calm, and you’re in some shallow areas, it is very versatile setup, and you can catch almost any kind of fish with it. And that worked on that lake. So I started thinking like, you know, a lot of times in marketing,

You see other people doing tactics or maybe you’ve got some experience in e-comm and selling B2C and it’s like, I can do these things on Facebook or I can do these things on Google Ads and they work. And then as soon as you go to another lake, like you switch over to B2B marketing and the lake is a hundred times bigger, it’s twice as deep, you’ve got a new species of fish, your old setup isn’t going to work as well, if at all.

And so you now have to learn and understand and study. So we switched to a large lake in northern Michigan and all my old techniques barely worked. So now I had to learn new techniques. I had to understand small mouth instead of large mouth. I had to understand the other fish, the bait fish that they were feeding on. And I did eventually switch to trolling and these bandit lures, which can go multiple depths and they’re perch colored.

So they look like the perch that they were feeding on. Or if it’s in the morning and it’s calm, I could use a head and spook, which is a top water. You do this neat little technique with called a walk the dog. you get, but as soon as the conditions change and the wind comes up, you got it. Your whole game changes. So that’s like in B2B, right? Everything, everything that worked in the, on the B2C side doesn’t necessarily work on the B2B side.

And this preparation, this understanding and this research and everything is so critical to actually getting the fish at the right moment. And I feel like that’s everything we’ve been talking about with learners. Like all this preparation you need to do and all the setup and everything to get in front of them at the right moments, at the right times with the right problem or pain that they have. And then they’re willing to consume the bait and come into your funnel.

Katherine LeBrun (12:30.405)
Yeah, the one thing I would build on top of that, I love how detailed you got, Curtis. You’re clearly a more experienced fisher person than I am. But, you know, one thing I’ve learned the hard way is when a fish is nibbling at your bait and you jerk your line trying to hook it, half the time, if not more than half the time, that just scares the fish away. So if you try to take a learner and you try to hook them instantly,

Curtis Hays (12:35.646)
you

Katherine LeBrun (12:59.591)
they’re likely gonna swim away and maybe never come back. You’ve scared them off. So there is an element of patience letting that fish explore what you’ve dropped into that lake before you can really play a more active role in the relationship that’s being built.

Curtis Hays (13:20.621)
finesse. That’s the word that comes to mind. There is there is a finesse to fishing and there is a finesse to marketing as well 100%.

Tom Nixon (13:29.516)
Yeah, going back to your analogy, Catherine, I love that we’re just speaking in code today. It’s like, but it’s so relatable, right? So, yeah, you try to jerk the line way too quickly because you’re so focused. Like we talked about last week with Amy, you’re only focused on the lead number, right? It’s like I just I have to prove leads upstairs or I’m without a job. So you start focusing on the wrong metric. I wanted to share quickly another post of yours, Catherine, that I stumbled upon today doing a little fishing of my own and

Curtis Hays (13:34.241)
Yeah

Tom Nixon (13:59.022)
I think you’re touching on something that I think is like my really struck a chord with me because I think people are afraid to say this as marketing consultants is I’m just going to read it quickly. You said you studied 11 billion posts that hack LinkedIn’s algorithm and you compiled a 60 slide presentation, breaking down how to write a post that drives a ton of engagement. And I’m sharing those tips with the world. All you have to do is like this post and comment. This is a joke and I’ll

Maybe, but probably not. Send you a link to download these hot tips, likely long after you forgot that you commented. The link may take you to my sub stack and ask you to subscribe, but I’ll be sure to dangle this juicy piece of thought leadership to get you to boost my subscription numbers, which I’ll brag about in the footnote of my future posts. Or it might take you to my company’s website and force you to fill out a lead gen form so I can hit my quarterly goal. Remember, comment this is a joke to learn how to trick LinkedIn and your network.

into thinking you’ve posted something amazing to me that reads like what a lot of people strategy seems to be in that is chasing the wrong metrics going after like you said at the beginning tricking somebody into taking an action and then not delivering on it. And then, you know, the hunt is over the Fisher’s over. So talk to me a little bit about what inspired that post because I think you’re you’re speaking my language here.

Katherine LeBrun (15:22.661)
Yeah, that was probably one of the cheekier posts I’ve ever written. What inspired it? Honestly, I was tired of being that fish that was getting hooked by random influencers on LinkedIn saying they were dangling some juicy piece of bait in front of me saying, all you have to do is jump through these five hoops and you’ll get something of value from me.

most of the time it’s not very valuable. I know there’s actually a big debate happening on LinkedIn, whether that tactic is a brilliant tactic because it is hacking LinkedIn’s algorithms where you get hundreds of people to comment the same word on your post and so then it goes viral or whether that’s a terrible tactic because it’s chasing vanity metrics that ultimately end up kind of severing some trust and some ties to

I’ve actually unfollowed some people because they’re using that tactic and it’s, you feel exploited as a customer versus enriched by them. So no one wants to feel exploited. So that was my way of, yeah, just.

Tom Nixon (16:31.214)
Yeah, and you can. The temptation is to take those vanity metrics and then report them upstream and look at all these leads we got. And then, know, weeks later, sales is like those weren’t leads. They give you a fake email address, right? To download the thing. And so now there’s this, you know, what’s the word I’m looking for? The adversarial relationship between marketing and sales that exists. I wanted to Curtis show you how little I know about phishing.

But I think I know something enough about content marketing to say won’t the fish be more likely to bite if you’ve been throwing chum into the water for the last six weeks. In other words, if you’ve been giving people what they naturally want in need to solve their problems, their hunger, right? The fish need to eat. Then when you do go for an ask and say, by the way, here’s this webinar that I have. I’ve been

Earning your trust for the last six weeks with my content chum. If you want the real deal, come to this webinar and I’ll give you away some more free chum. Isn’t that a better way to go about fishing than just saying, dropping the line in and yelling into the lake.

Curtis Hays (17:40.502)
It certainly can be. I think what we’ve lost on the sales side and even the marketing side is the value of the relationship. Right? So we’re, we’re establishing trust. There’s actually a really cool video of a guy who’s who’s he’s snorkeling or scuba diving. I can’t remember, but he’s actually friended a fish. This every time he goes into the water, this fish comes and swims to him. Like he could literally grab it.

and he records himself underwater in the same fish every time he goes in. He’ll come back a week later and finds the same fish and will swim to him. And they have this relationship. I feel like Stephanie, who we’ve had on the show, my wife, she was in account management for 14 years. what she’ll tell you is she was great at sales because she was there for her client when there was no money in it for her.

Tom Nixon (18:21.23)
crazy.

Tom Nixon (18:39.214)
Mm-hmm.

Curtis Hays (18:40.427)
Right? if you’re there for your, like, thinking from a marketing perspective, if you’re there for your target audience, even when they don’t need you, you’re educating them, you’re putting out helpful, valuable content, you’re being a trusted resource, then when they do need something, you’re going to be who they turn to. But you can’t be in it for the money. You need to be in it for the relationship. Now, that’s, like Amy said, tough in the world of private equity and investors. And…

you know, we need to hit certain types of numbers. if you’re the type of company who can think that think of marketing as the long game and you can value and put investment into relationships, I think at the end of the day, there’s going to be a bigger payoff.

Tom Nixon (19:26.508)
Yep. So, absolutely. I notice you totally eschewed my chum metaphor. So, that must be a horrible tactic in fishing.

Curtis Hays (19:33.188)
I think if you’re using a net, I think if you’re using a net, would of course work. It doesn’t necessarily work in my scenarios because the fish are all over the place in the lakes that I’m at. You never know where they’re going to be from one day to the next, honestly. And so you do have, there is some testing, some sort of AB testing, but you find commonalities of what works and what doesn’t, which I could tell you, like in my case on the lake I’m at.

Tom Nixon (19:38.317)
Okay, good.

Curtis Hays (20:01.451)
the moon plays a huge role. It’s a large lake, extremely large, it is affected by tide. And so, on new moons and full moons, at night, some of the largest fish I’ve ever caught are during that time period, not volume, but largest. And so, yeah, you do the research, you experience what works and what doesn’t, and you adjust your strategies based off of those types of things. If I keep throwing,

drop shot into a lake that isn’t going to hit the bottom and isn’t going to get to where my fish are. I’m just wasting my time wasting money, gas every time going out, right? So you’ve, you’ve got to understand and learn that environment.

Tom Nixon (20:46.926)
So Catherine translate all of that back into sales and marketing strategy. So how would you, this is great, Curtis. That’s awesome. And it’s maybe it’s obvious and intuitive to our listeners and watchers, but how would you then get somebody or is it possible to get somebody out of the hunting mentality? Not entirely, but at least moving more towards a fishing mentality.

Katherine LeBrun (21:07.675)
Yeah, I mean, think basically, you know, if I could sum up what Curtis is saying in just a cliche, it’s you can’t take a one size fits all approach. So if you’re a B2B SaaS marketer or an SDR who’s trying to sell a B2B SaaS product, you need to do the research. You need to understand who is your customer. What type of content will they value?

content being kind of the bait, right? That you’re putting out there or the chum you’re throwing into the water. Yeah, there you go. Giving you some credit, And then, know, what lakes are they even hanging out in? Or are they rivers? Or are they, you know, open ocean, right? There’s, you have to figure out where your customer is.

Tom Nixon (21:38.83)
There it is.

Tom Nixon (21:44.706)
Thank you.

Katherine LeBrun (21:59.367)
so that you can go to them, you can bring something that they will actually want to engage in. They will see value in, and then you find the right way to deliver it to them. So to take a concrete example, a lot of B2B, if we’re focused on B2B, a lot of B2B customers hang out on LinkedIn these days. That doesn’t necessarily mean that buying a bunch of ads on LinkedIn that drive to a

sign up, you know, a lead gen form is going to actually convert your target audience into paying customers. Potentially, and I’ve seen this with a lot of companies, the best tactic is having the founder, the CEO, the CMO, the, you know, head of sales, just start posting on LinkedIn. And it could be about anything. I mean, ideally it’s about the pain points of their customers or the, you know, the problem that

their product is solving. But just by being there, being present, offering something ideally of value, you’ll start to build that relationship. You’ll get engagement. You’ll start to get those nibbles. And then when the time comes for someone who says, oh, wow, we really need to look at a new CRM and see if there’s anything better out there. Or we need to figure out X, Y, and Z problem. We need to

up level because we’re growing too fast and we need something that’ll allow us to scale. Your company will likely be top of mind if you’ve been giving them, you know, bait this entire time that they have been testing and saying, yeah, I like this. You know, let me, let me, let me go into that boat because this is, this is the one for me.

Tom Nixon (23:47.554)
Yeah. It’s been my contention all along that if you’re not doing that, then you become prospect aware at the point where maybe the pain is imminent and a purchase is imminent, but now there’s a competitive field, right? I have no idea who I’m looking for or what. And so I’ve got to go out and get a bid list and it’s five people long and going to get this approved by my higher ups as opposed to when you are educating the market throughout, as you said, with this content.

that you’re just giving with no expectation that you’re going to get anything in return, right? When the prospect becomes problem aware, they’re already become solution aware. They’re like, this is the person who’s been solving this problem for me out there in the open for free for six, 12 months. Maybe there isn’t a competitive field, Curtis. Maybe it’s going back to your analogy. It’s that fish trust that person for some reason that trust wasn’t bought at a single point in time. It was earned over time.

That fish is smart enough to understand that if it needs something from a person, that’s the person he’s going to swim to, correct?

Curtis Hays (24:49.741)
Correct. Yep. And again, it

Tom Nixon (24:50.882)
Good. I got one analogy done. Good.

Curtis Hays (24:54.539)
It takes patience, right? mean, that’s, and phishing does take patience, but it does take a lot of patience. And that’s, again, what I was saying earlier, what Amy has said, and is a struggle in the B2B space is if you’re selling a product in SaaS or professional services, that is a high ticket item.

that sale is not going to come from one interaction, know, one ad. I cannot expect I’m going to go onto a new lake trying an old technique, throw it in the water, and, you know, I’m going to, I need to spend time. That’s what I think I’m trying to provide in my analogy is I need to spend time researching, learning, and trying things. So putting out content until I start to find what starts to resonate. And then that…

You know, this this lure here I have in about 10 different colors and I’ve got about 50 of them, right? It’s like I found what works and then, you know, I’m doubling down on that, right? And I’ve got a whole arsenal of it ready to go. And I think that’s what as at least as marketers, we need to be really focused on is the research aspect of it and the content aspect of marketing, which really gets back to what I think marketing was prior to myself getting into marketing.

prior to this big boom of technology and social media and tactics to sort of get what people thought was the quick win.

Tom Nixon (26:27.33)
Yeah, it’s patience. And that’s why I said, you know, if you do this right, you will meet the prospect at a point long before they’re ready to nibble, right? And you’re going to condition that prospect that you are the solution come problem time when they’re ready to make the purchase. 

Tom Nixon (26:53.083)
I wanted to kick it back to Katherine with something that she said earlier.

shoot. Looking at my notes one second.

Tom Nixon (27:13.981)
I got it. So, all right. So, Catherine, would you say that fishers should never be hunters or that there’s a combination of tactics, skill sets, mindsets that are appropriate? And the problem isn’t that you’re a hunter. It’s a problem that you’re hunting at the wrong time, you’re in the wrong place. Just clarify that for us.

Katherine LeBrun (27:35.899)
Yeah, I mean, for me, it’s more of a, it’s a mentality shift, right? You know, I would encourage sales reps, marketers to not look at their customers as prey, right? And I get that, know, when you’re fishing, the fish is your prey as well. So I get that the analogy isn’t a hundred percent perfect, but really, you know, it should be, you look at your customers as a group of people that

you are hoping to draw out, to come to you, to trust you. Treat it more actually like that amazing scuba diver who befriended the fish, right? Ideally, you want them to feel comfortable and confident engaging with you and not feel like they have to have their guard up because you’re about to attack them and dominate them.

Tom Nixon (28:30.786)
Well, you triggered a thought that I was struggling to remember just a second ago, which is another analogy, bringing the golden rule, right? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Right? So I think people lose sight of the fact that think about your own daily behaviors on the internet. Right? Do you respond to every impulse to click a link and download a form and ask for a white paper? Like, I don’t know if I ever do that. Right? If I

Super if the problem is super acute and super top of mind and somebody hits it just at the right time that I can’t live with this any longer than maybe I will but we’re asking people to do behaviors. Curtis, like we’ve talked about in the past that we wouldn’t ourselves do as consumers, right? So when you go for the ask without any of the build up, would we do that? Would you do that? Curtis? Would you buy something from a significant B2B enterprise level investment from?

A link that gets served up in your feed?

Curtis Hays (29:26.719)
No. And I mean, I, being a performance marketer, I have data that shows that that tactic actually doesn’t work in a couple different scenarios. So the presentation matters. We stick with phishing analogies, the presentation totally matters. And it’s like the example you gave, Katherine, right? So I could I could share data on a campaign we have running right now. It’s essentially the exact same content.

Tom Nixon (29:40.398)
I had us on the golden rule just a second ago.

Curtis Hays (29:54.084)
One is a boosted post presented from the brand page and one is the same exact content, but it’s posted from a subject matter expert within the company. Okay. There are zero clicks, no engagement on the branded piece of content, but we have just shy of a 5 % engagement rate on the post from the subject matter expert.

People want to engage with other people. There’s already an established trust there. It’s to the exact same audience. Like this is literally an identical campaign, just presenting the content to totally different ways. So you really, again, I think that comes down to understanding who your audience is, understanding their problem or pain, presenting to them in a authentic way. We’ve used that terminology before, Tom, of authenticity. And then the other thing I would say, which

YouTube I know are both fans of, because I’ve heard you guys both talk about it. And Catherine, I think you had a post on this recently, is show me, don’t tell me. Because you can’t just be talking about your features and all these other things. You’ve got to actually use storytelling and show them and let them consume the content in their way. Describe that, Catherine.

Katherine LeBrun (31:16.349)
Yeah, I mean, think that that’s the other area we probably don’t have time to dive into in this episode, but you know, it’s so important is what the content is actually saying, right? I mean, the quality of the bait you’re putting out there matters. Just, you know, as much as where you’re putting it and what time of day you’re putting it out there. If you’re…

Content itself is self-serving or just, I don’t know, irrelevant. Doesn’t make a customer smarter, better, faster, more confident in what they’re doing in their daily lives. Why would they spend even a minute engaging with it? You’re not helping them. You’re tooting your own horn. So the message you put out there has to be something that you’re

Tom Nixon (32:03.851)
nibbling.

Katherine LeBrun (32:15.421)
target audience actually values in addition to your product offering being something that they value.

Tom Nixon (32:23.032)
Yep.

Curtis Hays (32:23.319)
And you just got certified as its story brand? that? Yeah.

Katherine LeBrun (32:25.789)
Yeah, yeah, I just get certified as a Story Brand Coach. I mean, I’ve read that book so many times and I just I love the concept of the customer being the hero and the product, the brand is just a means to their ultimate goals. It’s a guide that helps them achieve what they want to achieve versus being the hero themselves.

Tom Nixon (32:50.018)
We need to do a whole episode on Story Brand in the customer journey. Absolutely cool. Well, like I said at the beginning, spring is almost here. Summer can’t be far behind. So, Katherine, you joked at the end of your post that maybe the next SDR team building event should be a Fisher trip. So we’ve got a we’ve got a professional right here. So we make that happen this summer. We can really learn how to fish. Yeah.

Curtis Hays (33:12.129)
We can. I’ll have to, you know, set up the studio with some cameras and stuff on the boat, but we could probably make that happen.

Tom Nixon (33:21.92)
I think we just go out and learn how to fish and come back and say, ladies and gentlemen, we have mastered the art of marketing. Let us explain. All right. Well.

Curtis Hays (33:29.571)
We need all summer. If we’re going to master it, we would literally need all summer.

Tom Nixon (33:35.66)
Okay. I have to be back to work by November, but I’m with the otherwise. So, all right. Well, cool. Well, this was great. Catherine, what final thoughts would you give if you, the sales team listening to this podcast could just take away one thing in a sentence or so, what would it be?

Curtis Hays (33:38.435)
you

Katherine LeBrun (33:51.185)
Yeah, think it’s learn your customer inside and out. Understand them. Don’t look at what you want them to do and where you want them to be. Really look at where they are, what problems they’re trying to solve, what their day-to-day life looks like, and you’re going to be so much more effective in reaching them.

Tom Nixon (34:11.79)
I love that Curtis don’t focus on what you want them to do. Focus on what they want to do. Where do you fit into that? So last word goes to you, Curtis as the

Curtis Hays (34:20.683)
No, I don’t need the last word, Catherine. Where can people find you?

Katherine LeBrun (34:24.517)
LinkedIn, I mean, where all those B2B marketers are. So find me on LinkedIn.

Tom Nixon (34:30.094)
All right, look for that link in the show notes.

Curtis Hays (34:31.819)
All right, we’ll put your, yep, we’ll put that link in the show notes and really appreciate you being a guest on the show. And of course I had a blast talking about fishing. So now I’m ready to go make sure the batteries are charged on the trolling motor. I’m gonna get all ready to go.

Katherine LeBrun (34:48.177)
I need to renew my license, so yeah.

Tom Nixon (34:48.724)
Absolutely. Perfect. And I’m going to mix metaphors and switch analogies and thank everyone for embracing both precision and promotion. And we’ll see you next time on Bullhorns and Bullseyes. See what we did there.